Jasper, even met je rechtermuisknop erop klikken en dan afbeelding weergeven selecteren.
Het spruitstuk van de K8 zit helemaal niet verkeerd in elkaar, hoewel die van de KLDE/KLZE/KFDE/KFZE gebouwd zijn op meer lucht die er doorheen moet gaan. De standaard K8 kan prima met zijn originele spruitstuk uit de voeten. Misschien dat je er met een performance filter + aangepaste ranges iets mee wint, maar ik zou met name kijken naar de temperatuur van de lucht en het spruitstuk. ik denk dat daar meer te winnen valt.
Throttle bodies
Moderator: Moderators
Nog effe nagezocht (wellicht extra interessant voor jou Jasper!):
This is a description of the K8, Millenia, KLDE, ZE Throttle Bodies.
All of these TB's have the bolt pattern to fit on any K-series Intake Manifold but aren't perfectly interchangable because of differences in IAC position.
1. The K8DE (55mm) and Millenia (60mm)(Eunos, MS-8, whatever you wanna call it) have the same style of IAC. The IAC cylinder (where the wire harnass connects) sticks out to the right if you were looking at it straight on. This is because these Intake Manifolds have a curved neck on them and if the cylinder came out to the left it would hit the thermostat housing or heater core coolant lines.
2. KLDE TB/IAC, It's bore is 60mm and it has the most unique IAC of them all. The IAC cylinder sticks out to the left and where the harnass connects is pointed straight down, where as the K8/Millenia wire harnass comes in horizontal. This IAC also has a bypass tube which no other IAC has. This KLDE TB/IAC combination can be used on the Straight Neck ZE Intake manny but the large bypass tube has to be connected somehow. From more on this see www.probetalk.com
3. KLZE Straight Neck (60mm)TB/IAC, This is what you find on all the Straight Neck ZE's which can be K8ZE, KFZE, and KLZE. I'm not saying K8ZE and KFZE TB's are 60mm either. If the Intake neck is straight, 99.9% of the time this is the style you have. This style has the IAC cylinder (where wireharnass plugs on) on the left, the same side as the KLDE but doesn't have the big vaccum port. Since the IAC sticks out on the left it won't fit on the K8DE or Millenia style manifolds.
So next you say why don't you just swap the IAC's?
This would be nice but not so fast. The K8DE/Millenia IAC's are interchangable with each other. The KLDE and Straight Neck ZE IAC's are interchangable but one little mod is needed besides the Vaccum tube see probetalk for more on this.
The reason you can't put a K8DE/Millenia IAC on a KLDE/ZE TB is because the pattern to which it bolts up is completely the opposite and visa versa with the KLDE/ZE IAC to the K8DE/Millenia TB.
I will try to take some pictures since I have about 5 different TB's lying around to help everyone better understand this.
This is a description of the K8, Millenia, KLDE, ZE Throttle Bodies.
All of these TB's have the bolt pattern to fit on any K-series Intake Manifold but aren't perfectly interchangable because of differences in IAC position.
1. The K8DE (55mm) and Millenia (60mm)(Eunos, MS-8, whatever you wanna call it) have the same style of IAC. The IAC cylinder (where the wire harnass connects) sticks out to the right if you were looking at it straight on. This is because these Intake Manifolds have a curved neck on them and if the cylinder came out to the left it would hit the thermostat housing or heater core coolant lines.
2. KLDE TB/IAC, It's bore is 60mm and it has the most unique IAC of them all. The IAC cylinder sticks out to the left and where the harnass connects is pointed straight down, where as the K8/Millenia wire harnass comes in horizontal. This IAC also has a bypass tube which no other IAC has. This KLDE TB/IAC combination can be used on the Straight Neck ZE Intake manny but the large bypass tube has to be connected somehow. From more on this see www.probetalk.com
3. KLZE Straight Neck (60mm)TB/IAC, This is what you find on all the Straight Neck ZE's which can be K8ZE, KFZE, and KLZE. I'm not saying K8ZE and KFZE TB's are 60mm either. If the Intake neck is straight, 99.9% of the time this is the style you have. This style has the IAC cylinder (where wireharnass plugs on) on the left, the same side as the KLDE but doesn't have the big vaccum port. Since the IAC sticks out on the left it won't fit on the K8DE or Millenia style manifolds.
So next you say why don't you just swap the IAC's?
This would be nice but not so fast. The K8DE/Millenia IAC's are interchangable with each other. The KLDE and Straight Neck ZE IAC's are interchangable but one little mod is needed besides the Vaccum tube see probetalk for more on this.
The reason you can't put a K8DE/Millenia IAC on a KLDE/ZE TB is because the pattern to which it bolts up is completely the opposite and visa versa with the KLDE/ZE IAC to the K8DE/Millenia TB.
I will try to take some pictures since I have about 5 different TB's lying around to help everyone better understand this.
OK everyone talks about them but very few dare to have their TB overbored. What's involved in the process: the throttle position sensor (TPS) is removed (and a pain to readjust afterwards but that's another story) as well as the throttle plate. The plate is usually held in place with two riveted screws. The best trick is to drill a small hole in it and use a screw puller. The TB opening is then honed to a larger size and a new throttle plate is manufactured from brass or similar material. See Julian's TPS adjustment procedure to properly set the TPS sensor.
How large can you go?
The "should I go larger" question is a bit more appropriate. Larger is better? Not always! On Honda and Mazda small engines, air velocity is everything. Enlarging the TB slows airflow and can to some extend kill hp. That is why the PRM intake system works so well. With its filter-within-a-venturi-tube design, air velocity is maintained. Yes I know, many recorded 5 to 10 hp gains with the larger TB. The thing to remember: is more air needed? If you have a low restriction exhaust, headers, adjustable pressure regulator,... probably yes. The rule of thumb is that an 8 to 10% increase in diameter will not hurt to much (but will) low-end response and the OEM TB can safely be overbored.
K8 1.8L: 55mm stock can be bored to 60mm
KL 2.5L: 60mm stock can be bored to 65mm
I already imagine a few thinking of slapping a 2.5L TB on the 1.8. Why not? The ISC solenoid and coolant pipes are in different locations and TPS has a different P/N. Yours to find if it will fit.
A larger TB will allow more air to enter the intake so you can expect hp gains in the mid and high rpm ranges. Some reported "lean" conditions with a larger TB so it would be a clever idea to install an A/F mixture readout ($100 to $150) to monitor the air to fuel ratio. The cure for this is the adjustable fuel pressure regulator or fuel pressure riser (about $200). A few more psi on the fuel rail is all that's needed to cure the lean burn condition.
Disconnecting the coolant lines
Engine coolant flow through the TB for various reasons: prevent icing in cold weather, help regulate the idle speed and, yet to be confirmed, cool the TB from hot EGR gases returned in the intake system. Disconnecting the coolant lines should yeild slightly lower TB temperature if EGR gases are not a problem. However conducted heat from the intake manifold is further increasing the TB's temperature but not that much. To some extend, placing an insulating gasket between the TB and intake manifold could reduce heat conduction. If anyone ever finds EGR-produced heat data please let me know.
The final word...
If your budget permits do it (count about $300), but remember to have been warned about the low-end losses and possible so-so improvement if you car doesn't have all the go-fast goodies on the exhaust and fuel system. Maybe it would be better to spend your dollars on the real intake bottleneck: the VAF sensor...! Looks like a nice winter project...
How large can you go?
The "should I go larger" question is a bit more appropriate. Larger is better? Not always! On Honda and Mazda small engines, air velocity is everything. Enlarging the TB slows airflow and can to some extend kill hp. That is why the PRM intake system works so well. With its filter-within-a-venturi-tube design, air velocity is maintained. Yes I know, many recorded 5 to 10 hp gains with the larger TB. The thing to remember: is more air needed? If you have a low restriction exhaust, headers, adjustable pressure regulator,... probably yes. The rule of thumb is that an 8 to 10% increase in diameter will not hurt to much (but will) low-end response and the OEM TB can safely be overbored.
K8 1.8L: 55mm stock can be bored to 60mm
KL 2.5L: 60mm stock can be bored to 65mm
I already imagine a few thinking of slapping a 2.5L TB on the 1.8. Why not? The ISC solenoid and coolant pipes are in different locations and TPS has a different P/N. Yours to find if it will fit.
A larger TB will allow more air to enter the intake so you can expect hp gains in the mid and high rpm ranges. Some reported "lean" conditions with a larger TB so it would be a clever idea to install an A/F mixture readout ($100 to $150) to monitor the air to fuel ratio. The cure for this is the adjustable fuel pressure regulator or fuel pressure riser (about $200). A few more psi on the fuel rail is all that's needed to cure the lean burn condition.
Disconnecting the coolant lines
Engine coolant flow through the TB for various reasons: prevent icing in cold weather, help regulate the idle speed and, yet to be confirmed, cool the TB from hot EGR gases returned in the intake system. Disconnecting the coolant lines should yeild slightly lower TB temperature if EGR gases are not a problem. However conducted heat from the intake manifold is further increasing the TB's temperature but not that much. To some extend, placing an insulating gasket between the TB and intake manifold could reduce heat conduction. If anyone ever finds EGR-produced heat data please let me know.
The final word...
If your budget permits do it (count about $300), but remember to have been warned about the low-end losses and possible so-so improvement if you car doesn't have all the go-fast goodies on the exhaust and fuel system. Maybe it would be better to spend your dollars on the real intake bottleneck: the VAF sensor...! Looks like a nice winter project...
Het is extra interessant voor jou omdat je een K8DE motor hebt met een KLDE inlaatspruitstuk.
Even de conclusies:
- Wellicht dat je K8DE inlaatspruitstuk inderdaad beperkend was omdat je veel performance mods hebt.
- Het wordt waarschijnlijk niet beter met het KLDE inlaatspruitstuk. Deze heeft wel openingen van 60 mm in plaats van 55 mm, maar de vorm van de luchttoevoer sluit niet "lekker" aan . Mogelijk wordt de snelheid van de aangevoerde lucht zo laag dat je performance verliest ipv wint.
- Er kunnen problemen zijn met je IAC (Idle Air Control valve), maar als je nog niets gemerkt hebt zal dat wel meevallen.
- Je loopt het risico dat je (door extra toevoer van lucht) een arm mengsel krijgt. (ik heb hier mijn bedenkingen mij omdat alles sowieso via de VAF blijft gaan) en de ECU dus kan blijven zorgen voor een goede mix.
De PRM intake wordt geadviseerd om meer snelheid te krijgen in de aangevoerde lucht (ik twijfel ook al erg lang om deze te bestellen maar hij is erg duur.)
Even de conclusies:
- Wellicht dat je K8DE inlaatspruitstuk inderdaad beperkend was omdat je veel performance mods hebt.
- Het wordt waarschijnlijk niet beter met het KLDE inlaatspruitstuk. Deze heeft wel openingen van 60 mm in plaats van 55 mm, maar de vorm van de luchttoevoer sluit niet "lekker" aan . Mogelijk wordt de snelheid van de aangevoerde lucht zo laag dat je performance verliest ipv wint.
- Er kunnen problemen zijn met je IAC (Idle Air Control valve), maar als je nog niets gemerkt hebt zal dat wel meevallen.
- Je loopt het risico dat je (door extra toevoer van lucht) een arm mengsel krijgt. (ik heb hier mijn bedenkingen mij omdat alles sowieso via de VAF blijft gaan) en de ECU dus kan blijven zorgen voor een goede mix.
De PRM intake wordt geadviseerd om meer snelheid te krijgen in de aangevoerde lucht (ik twijfel ook al erg lang om deze te bestellen maar hij is erg duur.)
Ik heb er ook nog schema's van. Wanneer welke klep open is en hoe dat zich verhoudt met de performance. Ik ga er binnenkort eens een FAQ over schrijven. Stuur je mij de tekening even toe, dan neem ik die ook op. Stuur maar naar mx-almere@watwashetookalweer.nl. dank je wel!
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mx3freak
- Super-Pilot
- Berichten: 2095
- Lid geworden op: 19 dec 2003, 19:06
- Locatie: almere
- Contacteer:
hoe zit dat bij het 2.0 v6 GT blok van de 323F dan? ik bedoel als ik daar het 2.5 spruitstuk op plaats?
mx almere schreef:Het is extra interessant voor jou omdat je een K8DE motor hebt met een KLDE inlaatspruitstuk.
Even de conclusies:
- Wellicht dat je K8DE inlaatspruitstuk inderdaad beperkend was omdat je veel performance mods hebt.
- Het wordt waarschijnlijk niet beter met het KLDE inlaatspruitstuk. Deze heeft wel openingen van 60 mm in plaats van 55 mm, maar de vorm van de luchttoevoer sluit niet "lekker" aan . Mogelijk wordt de snelheid van de aangevoerde lucht zo laag dat je performance verliest ipv wint.
- Er kunnen problemen zijn met je IAC (Idle Air Control valve), maar als je nog niets gemerkt hebt zal dat wel meevallen.
- Je loopt het risico dat je (door extra toevoer van lucht) een arm mengsel krijgt. (ik heb hier mijn bedenkingen mij omdat alles sowieso via de VAF blijft gaan) en de ECU dus kan blijven zorgen voor een goede mix.
De PRM intake wordt geadviseerd om meer snelheid te krijgen in de aangevoerde lucht (ik twijfel ook al erg lang om deze te bestellen maar hij is erg duur.)
Ik kom erop terug Jasper...Ik ben een FAQ aan het schrijven over VRIS en hier komt ook weer een hoop materiaal omhoog. Voor zover ik op dit moment kan inschatten zou het spruitstuk van de KFDE (uit je 323) het wel goed doen op je K8 (behalve dat je VRIS punten niet meer kloppen, maar dan doen ze met het KLDE spruitstuk ook al niet), maar hoe je 323 rijdt met het KLDE spruitstuk zou ik (nog) niet weten.
